Idiom and current usage

[towlenner]

OM 3, 631, 1138, 2461, 2541, 2549; PC 296, 600; BM 1155, 4266;

(+2 in BK)

What are these sentences in which "yn gwir" appears? Is it being used as an adverb, in which case yn hwir would be expected, or in another way?

[branvras]

So what we have is a mistake on the part of one person (Nance) being noticed and corrected by others (Edwards and Williams).

This is a good example of my point - that facts presented by experts do have to be checked. I'd like to check exactly what Edwards said about 'yn hwir'. Where did he notice and correct Nance's mistake with respect to this phrase?

I received no reply to this question. I think that goes a long way to proving my point.

Middle Cornish yn gwyr means 'in truth'; Revived Cornish yn hwir means 'truly, really'. There is a slight difference. There is room for both.

That's a learner's error.

No, it's anything but. It has been picked over endlessly by many fluent speakers. I think I'll withdraw from this conversation.

[Evertype]

My mistake. I don't know if this was on Edwards' list or not. I was, like Golvan, thinking of Caradar. Recte:

"So what we have is a mistake on the part of one person (Nance) being noticed and corrected by others (Smith and Williams)."

Gainsaying isn't argument. As I said, dhe wir, in gwir, and i'n gwiryoneth are rich enough, and there is no need to defend, or to perpetuate *yn whir.

[Dowrgi]

towlenner wrote:

What are these sentences in which "yn gwir" appears? Is it being used as an adverb, in which case yn hwir would be expected, or in another way?

Here are the sentences. May I respectfully suggest that in future you trawl through the texts yourself, if possible.

OM
3 onan ha try on yn gvyr
631 daggrow gois in gvyr hep mar
1138 mar kefyth yn gvyr hep gow
2461 dew vody tha ough yn guyr
2541 a gevelyn da yn guyr
2549 tres aral re got in guyr

PC
296 yn guyr sawys
600 ty a fyth yn guyr hep gow

BM
1155 ov hanov in guire heb mar
4266 me a wor in guir heb mar

BK
9.93 in gweyr heb mar
19.44 gans arthor in guyr heb mar

In most cases the phrase is used as a filler.
evertype wrote:

there is no need to defend, or to perpetuate *yn whir.

Seeing that it is found (in his own spelling) in Lhuyd, there is no need to omit it.

[Evertype]

AB 248c says "Enụîr or en ụîr" and AB 134c says "en ụîr", arguably either in wir or yn wir. Lhuyd wrote <hụ> for wh and he knew the difference (see mai hụelloh 246c). And there's still no attestation of this form outside of Lhuyd. In view of the run-on in 248c, I'd surmise that Lhuyd was hearing assimilated [ɪŋ ɡwiːr] as [ɪŋwiːr] but reanalysing the second half as wir (and not whir). That is, he was hearing in gwir. Else he would have written "Enhụîr or en hụîr".

[Gorvrywi]

Excuse my ignorance but I have little knowledge of IPA or the use of the symbols,

Isn't there evidence that WH sound was pronounced (especially late) as in English, i.e. varying between the Witch and WHich sound?

Wouldn't this then be a reasonable expectation as to found it pronounced as Evertype suggests, [ɪŋwiːr]? or perhaps [ɪŋ wiːr] with a small gap? Does that make sense?

[Albert Bock]

Wouldn't this then be a reasonable expectation as to found it pronounced as Evertype suggests, [ɪŋwiːr]? or perhaps [ɪŋ wiːr] with a small gap? Does that make sense?

It would make sense, but probably not in connection with the pronunciation suggested by Evertype. The IPA symbol ŋ stands for the sound <ng> is normally given in English. Taken at face value, Lhyud's <en uîr> stands for [en'wiːr]. This may represent a late pronunciation of otherwise unattested "yn hwir" in a variety of Cornish which had lost the distinction between /w/ and /ʍ/. Otherwise, it would be more precisely represented by a spelling <yn wir> in the SWF. As such, it could also be a result of the simplification and gradual breakdown of the mutation system in Late Cornish.

[branvras]

My mistake.

I know.

I don't know if this was on Edwards' list or not.

It was not.

Gainsaying isn't argument.

I agree, and although I wanted to withdraw from this conversation, I feel obliged to point out that you've missed the point entirely. I wasn't arguing for or against 'yn hwir'. I was pointing out that "facts" as presented by experts should always be checked. We had two examples, in as many days, of an expert presenting us with a "fact" that turned out not to be a "fact" at all. I rest my case - caveat kernewegor.

[Evertype]

My mistake.

I know.

I don't know if this was on Edwards' list or not.

It was not.

Gainsaying isn't argument.

I agree, and although I wanted to withdraw from this conversation, I feel obliged to point out that you've missed the point entirely. I wasn't arguing for or against 'yn hwir'. I was pointing out that "facts" as presented by experts should always be checked. We had two examples, in as many days, of an expert presenting us with a "fact" that turned out not to be a "fact" at all. I rest my case - caveat kernewegor.

See, that's why we are just as happy to withdraw from conversations with snide, anonymous people like you. I made a mistake. I cited Edwards when I was thinking of Smith, because in a similar context, Edwards and Williams did make the same recommendations—recommendations which are pretty ignored by people on the "other" side of the argument. (It is the argument about in kever that I was thinking of, should you care to care.)

I also withdrew my erroneous citation. I, like any real expert, acknowledged my mistake, in this case with thanks to Williams who reminded me that it was Smith, not Edwards. There are other experts in this field of endeavour who never acknowledge their mistakes. Not ever. You know who they are.

Albert, Ben, nice try. There's no room for civil discussion with anonymous people who just want to make snide, nasty comments in order to "prove" that we are "missing the point entirely".

[Brogh]

A gowetha ger,
A gothmans wheg,

I've just had a chance to catch up on the last few days' worth of posts, and I was very interested in some of the discussions about usage, so I'll drop my two cents in below. I am a bit concerned, however, that tensions are escalating, and I'd like to ask everyone to try to stick to the topic, and not get personal. Pointing out errors or oversights is fine -- and indeed, helpful -- but there's no need to belabor the point once it's been made. I'd also like to remind users of the forum that politeness needs to apply to everyone, and that characterizing another member of the forum as "nasty" is not acceptable, even if you don't know him or her by name.

As for the linguistic issues:

I myself chose to abandon yn hwir in favour of yn gwir, once my own research on the traditional texts showed me that the former was not attested. While I agree with the principle that yn hwir would be a predictable, grammatically correct adverb formed from the adjective gwir, I don't personally see the need to use that adverb in my own Cornish, when the well-attested Cornish phrase yn gwir more or less expresses the same idea. (I also wonder whether Lhuyd's yn wir might not be at least in part influenced by his native Welsh.)

Regarding conjugated verbs, I feel that it's great to know how all possible verbs could be conjugated, but that doesn't mean that it's necessary to conjugate all verbs all the time. Many regular verbs are quite clunky when you try to construct the preterite, pluperfect, or subjunctive forms, and my experience of the traditional texts and of RC usage is that auxiliary verbs are in widespread use, particularly with less commonly occurring verbs. There is a core group of regular (non-auxiliary) verbs that are frequently met with in conjugated forms in the texts: gweles for one. Beyond that, however, the picture is less clear. One complication is the relative paucity of direct yes/no questions in the corpus. My own practice (for what it's worth) is to use the 3s conjugated forms of most verbs, and some of the other forms of the more common verbs (mos, dos, gweles, etc.), but to switch to auxiliaries when dealing with less common forms and less common verbs, particularly if they are lengthy or are loanwords from English.

Oll an gwella,
Ben